Iraq and Afghanistan Combat Wounded

[The Oracle]

In my best cosplay translation: "No way dude, you're so wrong. I learned tactic's from Leroy Jenkins and marksmanship from Grand Theft Auto. See, the ever scary and efficent sideways gun stance"

Then there is that...

[Major Eaton]

To that end, I think Project Appleseed should be promoted, all the more. (See, I don't always troll)

[n11pilot]

I do not want to take this thread too far afield since it concerns an issue that I feel is vitally important to all of those who have served at the sharp end of the spear but two questions were raised that I would like to address.

Under law military service in the PRC is compulsory for all males who have reached the age of 18. However, the People's Liberation Army has no shortage of volunteers so the "draft" has never actually been enacted.

As to compulsory military service for the US I am of two minds. I see a value to people being forced to serve something beyond themselves and to learn discipline. That is my visceral take on the subject, but as a former soldier I am not overly fond of the draft. We have an all volunteer force right now and that means that every person serving is there by their own choice. No matter what situation a fighting man finds himself in he can depend on the next troop to be as dedicated as he is. You don't have to worry if the guy next to you is only there because he couldn't find a good lawyer or wasn't bright enough to get a college deferment.

[MacFett]

In the case of mandatory service, I think it should be along the lines that Robert Heinlein recommended in Star Ship Troopers. If you want the benefits of citizenship, you serve.
It doesn't have to be military because not everybody is cut out to be a soldier, sailor, marine, or airman. (OK, well anybody can be an airman )
I also believe that the military needs to tighten up their standards for entry into the service and tougher training to weed out the ones who shouldn't be there but managed to get in somehow. If you don't make it through training, there are no VA benefits. Your record should go down as a "never served."
Around 2003 or so the flood gates were opened, the standards for enlistment went down along with the training standard in an effort to get more people in the military. The problem with that is that you have now taken somebody off the street where they probably never truly faced any stress, ran them through a minimal stress environment for training, and then shipped them into a combat zone where stress is an everyday occurrence (worse for some than for others). Oh, and by the way, don't forget that they have access to a loaded weapon at all times.
Then before they've even had the chance to get home to be with family (If family has even stuck around) you tell them that they'll be back in the combat zone in about 12 months. Once they get home and crawl into their favorite bottle since that's all they have left... And we wonder why suicide rates are up in the military?
And pilot; you do have to worry about if the guy just joined up for the college money or because of a crappy economy. Trust me the dedication level is not the same across the board.
Just thought I'd share.

[n11pilot]

And pilot; you do have to worry about if the guy just joined up for the college money or because of a crappy economy. Trust me the dedication level is not the same across the board.
Just thought I'd share.

Mac, believe it or not I actually had that in the back of my mind while writing my post. I have served with people who had started their military careers as draftees and were top soldiers and I have served with volunteers who were well on their way to an "Other than honorable" or worse. I am basing my comments on both what I observe about the potential draftees of today and the thinking that with a draft we would be getting a lot more OTH candidates. I hope I am wrong.

[MacFett]

Mac, believe it or not I actually had that in the back of my mind while writing my post. I have served with people who had started their military careers as draftees and were top soldiers and I have served with volunteers who were well on their way to an "Other than honorable" or worse. I am basing my comments on both what I observe about the potential draftees of today and the thinking that with a draft we would be getting a lot more OTH candidates. I hope I am wrong.

I think any discussions of a draft or draftees are purely academic since our political machine of today would never do it. The only way it would work is to have an incentive of some kind for service... like citizenship and then it isn't a draft.
I have respect for most of our soldiers today who joined up after 9/11. Pre 9/11 you had your college money soldiers some of who never thought they would actually have to "earn" that money through combat. Post 9/11, there should be NO doubt in your mind that if you join (at least the Army or Marines) you will be sent to a combat zone; and still they sign up. There is something to be said about that.

[The Oracle]

I have respect for most of our soldiers today who joined up after 9/11. Pre 9/11 you had your college money soldiers some of who never thought they would actually have to "earn" that money through combat. Post 9/11, there should be NO doubt in your mind that if you join (at least the Army or Marines) you will be sent to a combat zone; and still they sign up. There is something to be said about that.

Amen to that my friend. These brave souls have a special place in my heart, thus the reason for starting this thread.

[Major Eaton]

Don't know if this is the place for this or not, but did any of y'all hear about the worst loss of aircraft since Vietnam in the news at all...

...Eight irreplaceable aircraft (the AV-8B has been out of production since 1999) have been destroyed or put out of action – approximately 7 percent of the total flying USMC Harrier fleet. Worse yet, the aircraft involved were the AV-B+ variant equipped with the APG-65 radar and AAQ-28 Litening II targeting pods – the most capable in the force. Given the current funding situation, it’s likely that the two damaged AV-8Bs will become spare parts “hangar queens” and never fly again. A Harrier squadron commander is dead, along with another Marine. Another nine personnel have been wounded, and the nearby Marines at Camp Freedom are now without effective fixed-wing air support. The USMC’s response to this disaster will be a telling report card on its leadership and organizational agility...

Oh. Well, now you have. This was the attack 'bout 10 days ago.

[n11pilot]

Don't know if this is the place for this or not, but did any of y'all hear about the worst loss of aircraft since Vietnam in the news at all...

...Eight irreplaceable aircraft (the AV-8B has been out of production since 1999) have been destroyed or put out of action – approximately 7 percent of the total flying USMC Harrier fleet. Worse yet, the aircraft involved were the AV-B+ variant equipped with the APG-65 radar and AAQ-28 Litening II targeting pods – the most capable in the force. Given the current funding situation, it’s likely that the two damaged AV-8Bs will become spare parts “hangar queens” and never fly again. A Harrier squadron commander is dead, along with another Marine. Another nine personnel have been wounded, and the nearby Marines at Camp Freedom are now without effective fixed-wing air support. The USMC’s response to this disaster will be a telling report card on its leadership and organizational agility...

Oh. Well, now you have. This was the attack 'bout 10 days ago.

Honestly, I don't know if this is the proper thread or not but it is important and needs to be put before the public. This raid has severely damaged an important and effective air asset of our forces and it has received very little in the way of press. Perhaps it is too close to the election for the media to point out this significant damage.

[MacFett]

The above two posts should come as no surprise that there is no media coverage.
Has the war in Afghanistan been even mentioned in EITHER election campaigns? Hell there are people in the nation that think the war is over since the troops are out of Iraq.
While the loss of the planes is a big hit, the Marines still have coverage.
On a different note; while I was waiting on my transport home (this time), we watched Viet Nam in HD (BTW, S.O.G. and all other VN vets, Thank you for your service) The similarities between VN and the war in Afghanistan are stunning. The main difference is the numbers. There are so many parallels that it's not funny and it seems that nobody sees this.
Maybe what we need are some more public protest to get us out of Afg.
All we are doing spending money and lives. If we leave tomorrow or 10 years from tomorrow the end result is the same.
Trust me I absolutely HATE feeling this way: But there it is.

[n11pilot]

The above two posts should come as no surprise that there is no media coverage.
Has the war in Afghanistan been even mentioned in EITHER election campaigns? Hell there are people in the nation that think the war is over since the troops are out of Iraq.
While the loss of the planes is a big hit, the Marines still have coverage.
On a different note; while I was waiting on my transport home (this time), we watched Viet Nam in HD (BTW, S.O.G. and all other VN vets, Thank you for your service) The similarities between VN and the war in Afghanistan are stunning. The main difference is the numbers. There are so many parallels that it's not funny and it seems that nobody sees this.
Maybe what we need are some more public protest to get us out of Afg.
All we are doing spending money and lives. If we leave tomorrow or 10 years from tomorrow the end result is the same.
Trust me I absolutely HATE feeling this way: But there it is.

Mac, since you have been at the sharp end I deeply respect your feelings and thoughts on this. The minute Obama announced a pull out date he may as well have brought all the troops home then. I think we should pull out with the promise of total destruction of Afghanistan if it ever becomes a haven for terrorists again.
As you have thanked the Viet Nam vets, I would like to thank you for your service.

[MacFett]

My favorite trick is Obama's promise to reduce the number of troops in Afghanistan prior to the 2014 complete pull out. And he is quick and proud to share that he has done so. Of course, what he and the media fail to point out (or remember) is his surge (you know the one where he didn't give McKrystal the number asked for). Well, the troop reduction brings us back to the pre-surge number. But, I guess that counts as a troop reduction?

But, we are getting WAY off base of the original intent of the thread. Unfortunately, there will continue to be Combat Wounded from Afghanistan for at least two more years.

[Cousi]

All of this boils down to the fact that we never learned the lessons of Vietnam. Mainly that war is not a politically driven event. It is not something that can be shown in the living rooms of civilians. It is not something that can be made more "civilized" for the politically correct crowd or the intellectual elites to discuss over wine and nod their heads sagely. War is a last resort and when you unleash the hounds of war, you give them a clearly defined objective and free rein to get the job done. War is mankind at its most primal and brutal: civilians will be hurt, innocents will be killed and many will have their lives completely changed. The 'civilized' thing to do is to welcome the warriors home, bind their wounds and thank them for their service with more than political platitudes. Any warrior that is unable to live a 'normal' life as a result of their service should be provided for as completely as we can. If we can replace a limb, we should do so and the veteran should not even know how much it cost for they paid a price higher than any dollar amount.

Part and parcel to this, in my opinion, is the training should be a lot harder than it is. When I was in boot, things were changing from a harder, more driven training that prepares the graduate for the absolute worst to something more palatable for Mummy and Daddy to deal with. The better prepared a person is the better they'll respond in a given situation. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and all that.

I could rant more but I'll stop here before I get myself too worked up to get anything done.

That being said, a massive thank you goes out to all our veterans but especially those who served in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan. True heroes, every one.

[The Oracle]

Cousi,

I think you are on to something. This is why the honoring of our combat dead and wounded is so important to me. War is politics, in the grand scheme of things. We use war when diplomacy fails to complete political objectives. Our combat wounded and dead (not to mention the thousands or war veterans) placed all on the line for a political end game. In Vietnam and Afghanistan, we sacrificed these brave souls with no clear end objective, no clear line of victory; they did their job, we have failed to allow them to have victory and to allow them to do what is needed to win even though they continue to win battle after battle. These types of limited wars have proven unsuccessful most of the time; you have better odds winning in Vegas. If we are going to say that we honor their sacrifices, then it is our duty to spell out victory and make victory obtainable. Without that, it is just a loss of life. Yes Mac is correct, we have forgotten everything we learned from Vietnam.

[n11pilot]

Cousi,

I think you are on to something. This is why the honoring of our combat dead and wounded is so important to me. War is politics, in the grand scheme of things. We use war when diplomacy fails to complete political objectives. Our combat wounded and dead (not to mention the thousands or war veterans) placed all on the line for a political end game. In Vietnam and Afghanistan, we sacrificed these brave souls with no clear end objective, no clear line of victory; they did their job, we have failed to allow them to have victory and to allow them to do what is needed to win even though they continue to win battle after battle. These types of limited wars have proven unsuccessful most of the time; you have better odds winning in Vegas. If we are going to say that we honor their sacrifices, then it is our duty to spell out victory and make victory obtainable. Without that, it is just a loss of life. Yes Mac is correct, we have forgotten everything we learned from Vietnam.

The US military is and should be under the control of the civilian government. This fact places a great deal of responsibility on that civilian government since at no time is the military self actuating. The Joint Chiefs did not decide to send troops to Afghanistan or Iraq, in both cases the deployment of force was decided by the President and approved by Congress. Now, once the descision to go to war has been made and the objectives stipulated the prosecution of that war should be in the hands of the military and not micro managed by politicians and bureaucrats 7000 miles away and eight hours behind the sounds of shots fired in anger.
If our political leadership has the temerity to order American fighting men and women to bleed, die or become disabled in pursuit of a goal then that leadership should have the courage to let them win.