Ground Zero Mosque

[Argonaut]

That's very interesting John. I wish I could remember as much as you in the way of specifics about the actual material.

[Hereward]

People who are educated and in particular know about history do not make good consumers.

[n11pilot]

People who are educated and in particular know about history do not make good consumers.

I think that statement is the most true thing I've read on the net in some time.

[The Oracle]

I have been reluctant to post on this as I am trying to understand the other side of the debate. However, in my studies on Islam (no I am not a Muslim) I have found several things that disturb me. After the 9/11 attacks I sought to gain an understanding of the Muslim faith and so I have read much of the Koran in the various translations and I have taken courses on Middle Eastern culture and Islam for my history minor in my degree program as well as Intelligence studies that deal with radical Islam and the Middle East.

What I have found demonstrates that both sides of the debate have valid points. As far as Islam is concerned, I have found that there are two teachings that Muslims go by. They can be summed up by the teachings that Muhammad gave while he spent time in Mecca and Medina. While in Mecca the Muslims were said to have been persecuted, stoned and killed as they threatened the way of life in the region. As a result the teachings are filled with messages of peace. Still, the Koran has passages that claim that deceit is necessary when faced with overwhelming odds. After the move to Medina the teaching become much more militant and intolerant. Many like the Saudi's teach this more intolerant side of Islam.

If you were to ask a person of Muslim faith about this contrast, they may say that they practice the Meccan teaching, but what about the idea of deceit. How are non-Muslims to take the fact that the most vocal of all Muslim clerics say that the latter teaching are the correct ones? How can we tolerant of a faith that is so intolerant of what they consider to be non-believers?

As far as the Mosque, I agree that it is not a Mosque. A mosque would not have all of the amenities that this center is alleged to have. I also agree that there are actual mosques in the area already. I also agree with the question of how close is too close? I agree that U.S. policies towards the Middle East have fostered and environment where the spread of hate and radical Islam can foster.

Now my belief is that the intentions of this center can be determined by where the funding for it comes from. If this site is funded by the Saudi's or any other Muslim nation where the Saudi-Wahhabi style of Islam (the one that gave birth to the Taliban and al Qaeda) is the accepted form of Islam, then the goal of this site is to put a thumb in the eye of America. If the funding comes from American donations, I might go along with the idea that the aim is to build a tolerance. Either way I am tired of being told that Judeo-Christian white males must conform to the political correctness and tolerance standards of others. For once I want another group to say, we should be tolerant and think of the ramifications of our actions.

[Fedora]

I have been reluctant to post on this as I am trying to understand the other side of the debate. However, in my studies on Islam (no I am not a Muslim) I have found several things that disturb me. After the 9/11 attacks I sought to gain an understanding of the Muslim faith and so I have read much of the Koran in the various translations and I have taken courses on Middle Eastern culture and Islam for my history minor in my degree program as well as Intelligence studies that deal with radical Islam and the Middle East.

What I have found demonstrates that both sides of the debate have valid points. As far as Islam is concerned, I have found that there are two teachings that Muslims go by. They can be summed up by the teachings that Muhammad gave while he spent time in Mecca and Medina. While in Mecca the Muslims said to have been persecuted, stoned and killed as they threatened the way of life in the region. As a result the teachings are filled with messages of peace. Still, the Koran has passages that claim that deceit is necessary when faced with overwhelming odds. After the move to Medina the teaching become much more militant and intolerant. Many like the Saudi's teach this more intolerant side of Islam.

If you were to ask a person of Muslim faith about this contrast, they may say that they practice the Meccan teaching, but what about the idea of deceit. How are non-Muslims to take the fact that other the most vocal of all Muslim clerics say that they latter teaching are the correct ones? How can we tolerant of a faith that is so intolerant of what they consider to be non-believers?

As far as the Mosque, I agree that it is not a Mosque. A mosque would not have all of the amenities that this center is alleged to have. I also agree that there are actual mosques in the area already. I also agree with the question of how close is too close? I agree that U.S. policies towards the Middle East have fostered and environment where the spread of hate and radical Islam can foster.

Now my belief is that the intentions of this center can be determined by where the funding for it comes from. If this site is funded by the Saudi's or any other Muslim nation where the Saudi-Wahhabi style of Islam (the one that gave birth to the Taliban and al Qaeda) is the accepted form of Islam, then the goal of this site is to put a thumb in the eye of America. If the funding comes from American donations, I might go along with the idea that the aim is to build a tolerance. Either way I am tired of being told that Judeo-Christian white males must conform to the political correctness and tolerance standards of others. For once I want another group to say, we should be tolerant and think of the ramifications of our actions.

I wonder if Rauf is also raising funds while on his taxpayer financed trip to the M.E.? But I think you are dead on, when you question where the funding comes from, and that this source(s) would shine light on the agenda of this man called Rauf.

I was trying to think of a comparison of this Islamic center close to Ground Zero and came up with one that shows this in a different light.

I have the legal right to buy up a small piece of land on every street that bears Martin Luther Kings name. What if I bought up this land and placed the largest Confederate Flag legally that could be used on each of these streets bearing that great man's name? I think I would have that right, but how inconsiderate would one have to be to even consider doing this?
I could maintain that my ancestors never owned slaves, that the flag represented my own heritage as I was from the geographical area of the South, and that this heritage did not include slavery for many in the South at that time, as all were not rich plantation owners. And in no way did I equate that flag with slavery, in fact the Confederate flag as most know it was hardly used, as others were more popular. Would you question my agenda, my motives? Damn right you would. But change symbols, i.e. flag, vs Mosque, and suddenly the entire scenerio changes. We should not question the motives of Rauf?

Sometimes just because we CAN do something is no argument for actually doing it. And I have seen a couple Muslims on tv that uses this argument. It is their RIGHT to build it there, and they are just carrying the tradition of the Constitution. Oh, they think the Constitutional rights trump good taste, sensitivity to non Muslims, and yet bill this mosque as an "outreach". Something smells to high heaven here. If it makes you suspicious, you are called a Muslim hater. This hints to me of an agenda, by Rauf, as his wife called us haters. I think there is more here than meets the eye.

[The Oracle]

That is right on. Just because it is legal, does not mean it is right.

[Heliograph]

There's a good deal of snickering about 20% of Americans believing Barack Obama is a Moslem. "Why everyone should know that's wrong!"

Should they? He has said he's Christian, but that's what he says. What great indications are there with that. He belong to Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ, but Wright's church had a large membership and membership was politically expedient.

I wonder if those polled looked beyond the superficial. He has also said he isn't a Socialist, but there are those who would argue otherwise. His inclination to let the government cure everything isn't exactly Libertarian.

What I really think is 20% felt he was a man who did not identify with America. Not one bit.

Now when it comes to the Ground Zero Mosque, I don't believe for a moment this isnt just like the building of the Cordoba Mosque or the Dome on the Rock. This is all about symbolism. It is the same type of symbolism employed by the Cordoba Mosque and the Dome on the Rock. The Cordoba Mosque was built over a Visigothic monastery in Cordoba. The Dome on the Rock was build over the Second Jewish Temple in Jeruselem.

WE HAVE DISPLACED WHAT WAS HERE BEFORE. GET OVER IT OR TRY TO DISPLACE US, IF YOU CAN. That's the triumphant message.

The Arabs weren't the only ones who "cemented" their victories. The Japanese built their central government building symbolically right in front of the ancient Korean palace in Seoul. It was a cause for great rejoicing in Korea when that building was torn down.

If the builders are so intent on building a warm and loving relationship with the Christians and Jews of New York why don't they back off several blocks and sponsor Little League teams? Why don't they build a hospital? Is it because they don't know the words to Kumbaya?

None of this is meant for the US market. No business would endure this kind of reaction to establish a supermarket. This is all about playing to the world Islamic market.

Islam sees and saw the World Trade Center as the material Center of America. What greater place to plant a mark, herald America's decline, and make clear who caused that decline?

Is this all just a cultural misunderstanding? Could the Saudis simply and innocently be tone-deaf? Not when things have gone this far.